Ever wondered about the origins of the universe?

General Discussion (off topic) Anything and everyt
121

There are hundreds of references to slavery and even more despicable behaviour from the Old Testament to the New.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.” (Ephesians 6:5-6)

“Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior.” (Titus 2:9-10)

Then we could look at the way Paul treats Onesimus, whom he meets in prison, which is directly against the teachings found in Deuteronomy.

The list goes on and on.

Sam Harris sums it up in his book ‘Letter to a Christian nation’

"Nothing in Christian theology remedies the appalling deficiencies of the Bible on what is perhaps the greatest—and the easiest—moral question our society has ever had to face.”

"Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself."

This is the principle of the ‘Golden Rule’ It’s really not something that was first revealed by Jesus or for that matter in the Bible. The essence of the ‘Golden rule’ can be found in teachings that pre-date the bible by several thousand years.

The teachings can be found in Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece, they are also centric to Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism and Islam. These principles are also considered as central to Humanism.

122

The Bible does not speak against slavery itself, but its abuses.

In the first case, the verse is just regulating a father hiring out his daughter to work. The verses after it, which you conveniently leave out, specify how the female should be treated (it is in the female’s favor, and is much better than most slavery systems).

Slaves be obedient to those who are your masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ
In Roman times, slaves had no legal rights and were treated as property. This is telling them to obey their masters with respect ("fear and trembling") as they would serve Christ. Again, you left out the following verses that show that the purpose of this is not to condone/allow slavery, but to encourage them to be good and diligent workers (it applies to employees and employers today). It also tells the masters to treat the slaves kindly.
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. [b]6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.[/b] 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

This is talking about Christian living. The ones who never accepted The Sacrifice will perish in the end.

Summary: Some of their own opinions about morality. But each is somewhat different and prone to errors.

123

This is not the place to talk about this subject, I’m afraid.

But I’ll just say this: You are the obey the law of the country you are in…that was taught in the Bible and by Jesus (in the case of Caesar’s taxes). The Bible focused on lessening the abuses of slavery. After all, slaves were usually captives from war or those who had sold themselves into slavery. (The Bible can’t combat everything too.)

Even if other religions taught the “golden rule” what does that mean? (In religions without God, I don’t see how they support that. Why is obeying a rule any better than obeying what you feel like doing?)

124

not necessarily 88)
i could be wrong, i’ve read that most serial killer are christian.
i didn’t say christian teaches killing, but moral & religion are 2 separate things.

125
This is not the place to talk about this subject, I'm afraid.

That’s denial

The Bible focused on lessening the abuses of slavery.

if that’s the case why didn’t God simply tell his people, “Thou shalt not own, buy, sell, or trade slaves?

Why is obeying a rule any better than obeying what you feel like doing?)

So if I feel like being nice to people, just because I want to, and I have no belief, am I still with out morals, or do I still need a god to make my decision moral?

In religions without God

Says who, you? Are you saying there is no god of Islam? That there are no Hindu gods? I can’t even imagine how the other several thousand religions manage without their gods!

126

If someone walked up to you and said “You’re in denial!” but you weren’t, what would you say?

:wink:

127

  1. The Bible does not condone slavery, it just recognizes it as a reality of those times and encourages it’s practice to be as benign and humane as possible.

  2. You can not prove the existence of God unless you have personally felt His hand on and in your own life as I and many others have. Conversely, you can not disprove it either, no matter how hard you try. At one point in my life, I was an agnostic / borderline atheist. I learned that I was wrong.

  3. The laws of Moses and the Old Testament apply just as much today as they ever did, at least to God if not to our human created justice systems. Jesus said that He did not come to change these things, but rather to affirm them. The only thing new He gave us was the way to gain salvation without having to be perfect and never break any of those laws. He provides forgiveness for those who truly believe.

128

The God of Islam may be the same God in Christianity/ Judaism, just interpreted incorrectly. The multiple gods in religions such as Hinduism are simply paganistic and therefore irrelevant and false.

129

Woah! Way to show respect to all faiths. Not. Do that again and I’ll post ban you for 24 hours to cool off. You shall demonstrate the appropriate regard and respect to all faiths and dominations in these forums. No matter what you’re personal opinions or feelings are.

edit: And I strongly suggest that you remove the text I have cited (ie. delete the whole post). Thank you.

130

I would say, refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd.

[Not mine, just something I remember from a class]

131

Christianity is faith, period. The way I grew up, you have faith. I would hate to grow up any other way. A big ■■■■ is what, nothing becomes something? Evolution is what, something becomes something that it can’t become? Until you recognize the fact that the scientific theory is every bit as fantastic as the theological way of thinking, you will never be anywhere as “enlightened” as you think you are. I honestly believe that this world was meant for us to understand to the very fullest that we can possibly understand it. The formula that you give is absolutely incomprehensible. Nobody here can explain anything that has been said from the scientific prospective without a masters degree…or a computer. Do you understand or can you copy and paste? Do you believe or can you argue? I can talk at length on the subject anywhere, anytime. Can you?

I love a good discussion but saying that creation is any more incredible than evolution is a complete cop-out.

132
1. The Bible does not condone slavery, it just recognizes it as a reality of those times and encourages it's practice to be as benign and humane as possible.

It may not condone slavery but neither did it do anything to stop the teachings found therein, being used as justification for the continued slavery, in the southern united states, until quite recently.

2. You can not prove the existence of God unless you have personally felt His hand on and in your own life as I and many others have. Conversely, you can not disprove it either, no matter how hard you try. At one point in my life, I was an agnostic / borderline atheist. I learned that I was wrong.

I have no personal interest in trying to prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being, regardless of the shape he, she or it might take. That prerogative it all yours.

he only thing new He gave us was the way to gain salvation without having to be perfect and never break any of those laws. He provides forgiveness for those who truly believe.

How, convenient!

The God of Islam...

I’ll not quote you in full because you have just ridiculed more than two thirds of the worlds population.

However, to put a few things in perspective. Up until the First Council of Nicaea, ‘paganism’ as you refer to it, was the primary religious environment Christianity just happened to get better press than it’s rivals and hence was adopted as the de facto standard.

With regard to Hinduism, they may well appear less than monotheistic to someone such as yourself, but then I doubt you know anything about their religion. For example, Hinduism is one of the worlds oldest religions and whilst they are indeed polytheistic, at the centre of their religion is Brahma, the creator.

Another point to consider is that Christianity is a declining religion. Currently, approximately 32% of the world population falls under that umbrella, with Islam at around 23%. However, Christianity s declining by approximately 32% per annum whisk Islam is growing by 19% per annum.

I’ll leave you do to the sums.

133

Das…Christianity was on the rise in the late 90’s…it was on the decline a few years ago…and on the rise in 2003…just like every major religion. It goes up and down. It happens with all religions.

134
Until you recognize the fact that the scientific theory is every bit as fantastic as the theological way of thinking, you will never be anywhere as "enlightened" as you think you are.

No it’s not! As has already stated, Scientific theory makes falsifiable or testable predictions. If something is found to be incorrect and new theory emerges. Belief in a supreme being is blind faith.

I can talk at length on the subject anywhere, anytime. Can you?

Yes, but it’s totally pointless exercise. Better people than me have often debated with various factions in the religious community, mostly ID’ers, as they are the most vocal, and the debates invariably lead nowhere.

As I said before, most of the evidence the ID’ers put up as proof for intelligent design has been shot full of holes so many times it’s almost funny, yet they continually trot out the same old, same old every time.

By all means come on over to The Panda’s Thumb and make your case :slight_smile:

135

Excellent idea! +1

136

ok ok, i confess.
actually it was me who created the universe, i was bored.
at first i wanna made a hover car, but then i thought why bother with complex anti gravity stuff (oops sorry, i created that one too), so i made the universe.
here i am my son, omnipresent, omnipotent, wanna hug? (:HUG)

let me say this one more time (because i can ;D) you can believe what you want, worship anyone you like.
but do not do not do not judge other’s faith right or wrong and/or force your religion to others, otherwise you’ll just betray your own god.

if your god/gods (or anything you praise for) is really that powerful, he/she/them won’t need your help to advertise their teaching, don’t you think? 88)

why can’t ppl just get along, pfftt 88)

137

Other than the hovercraft stuff, I can’t agree more.

[at] everyone,

Please stop disparaging the belief systems of others (scientific or religious).

Please stop arguing - God and Stephen Hawkin (and many onlookers to this topic) prefer the quiet.

To those on the God side of the fence and the not-so-God siide of the fence;

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Calm down please, everyone.

Ewen :slight_smile:

P.S. It is impossible to win a fight on the interweb.

138

No it does not prove it, but it strongly suggests it.

Indeed nothing finally can be completely proven. But a theory can be tested again and again and again by thousands of scientists in a hundred countries and then found wanting again and again and again. That is what has happened to creationism.

A little historical context, which you may or may not be aware of, may help. I have on my bookshelves a little primer on geology by Lyell, bought in Edinburgh. This was published just after the great clash in geology between Uniformitarian (evolutionary) and Catastrophist (creationists) geologists, which the Uniformitarians after many years of argument and counter argument, won, based on the strength of the evidence. Before this clash most geologist believed in creationism, but, over time it became progressively more difficult to reconcile creationism with their discoveries. Many of these geologists absolutely hated the fact that their science was causing them to challenge their religion - they did not give in easily I can tell you. You would find much to admire in their struggles. But, finally, first a majority, then an overwhelming majority had to accept that the evidence just did not support creationism.

Over the almost two centuries since then, religions and a few religiously convinced scientists have tried again and again to challenge evolutionary theory, both in geology and biology. On each occasions the ideas have been re-examined, tested against the evidence, and refuted. On each occasion the weight of evidence adduced against creationism has increased.

It is this accumulation of testing refutation and evidence, constantly examined by highly intelligent critical thinkers in many nations over the centuries, that I think should convince. However I respect your right to hold a different opinion.

Maybe I should have said not at all. I concede with you that natural selection does not itself change organisms and life-forms, but it is a system to "keep" the right mutations.

Organisms can “share” genetic code, but overall, it does not produce “more”.


This reference shows the variation in genome size across the phylla: Animal Genome Size Database:: Statistics
This book here. talks about the relationship between genomes and evolution. The page referenced talks about the relationship between organism complexity and genome size. (There is a relationship but it is complex).

Can I see some of this strong evidence? [Of the transfer of genetic material]
[url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107103621.htm] Here[/url] is some, report on an article in Nature. I can search down more if you like - if you google it you will find it.
This "intelligence" has desires and wants. He wants something to love. That is [b]His[/b] purpose for [i]creating[/i] [b]us[/b].
[Edited] I cannot see how to develop testable consequences for 'Intelligent Design' from this purpose. So, on the basis of the information you have so far provided, I cannot see how 'Intelligent Design' can be considered a scientific theory. Can you explain?
Suggestions and ideas proposed by creationists are as testable as ones by evolutionists, or more so.
[Edited] On the basis of the information you have so far provided on the 'purpose' which is driving the 'intelligence' I cannot see why you think this is true? Can you explain?

But as I say I fully respect your right to believe differently :slight_smile:

Mouse

139

Whoops sorry panic - did not read your post first. Shall I remove my last one?

Best wishes

Mouse

140

Nah. You seem to have kept emotion out of your post and you ended it respectfully - it’s either end of the spectrum that seem to be getting carried away.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire
Virtue debases itself in justifying itself.