Author Topic: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!  (Read 127282 times)

Offline Topcat2456

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2011, 07:20:59 AM »
I think this is first time that I seen not wanting to utterly destroy the average Joe's Windows installation referred to as "academic aloofness" and "pride" before.


No No No. You should try and see it from this side of the fence :-)  The average Joe just wants a swiss army knife that will help him survive. Comodo has the tools but they are in different pockets and he only wants one place to look in times of stress. How could a well written combination program utterly destroy his installation when the separated components already work fine?  That's the challenge to Comodo -  to really show the world that they are the best of the best. What galls me is the refusal to contemplate such a possibility on the basis that if you have run one program once then you will never need to run it again because you are using a companion program - it is an attitude being criticized. Of course there may well be very good reasons for taking that stance, but they are not explained.

Offline kail

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2011, 07:41:25 AM »
I don't believe what you just said, changes what I said or your previous posts embellishments (to be very kind) at all. In any event..

There are no sides here, only a lack of understanding. You say "well written" and you don't seem to understand what it would take to achieve that objective, you describe it as simply moving something from one pocket to another. I strongly suspect that the reality of what you pass off so easily would a be little more difficult. Consider a process that must cater for every single possible permutation on any given Windows installation.. does that alone sound even remotely simple or straight forward to you?

PS..
.. it is an attitude being criticized. ..
Indeed.

edit: On the subject of things working just fine soley: Exhibit A (and KillSwitch doesn't do anything that a reboot wouldn't fix).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 07:48:47 AM by kail »
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Offline Topcat2456

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2011, 08:33:30 AM »
I don't believe what you just said, changes what I said or your previous posts embellishments (to be very kind) at all. In any event..

There are no sides here, only a lack of understanding. You say "well written" and you don't seem to understand what it would take to achieve that objective, you describe it as simply moving something from one pocket to another. I strongly suspect that the reality of what you pass off so easily would a be little more difficult. Consider a process that must cater for every single possible permutation on any given Windows installation.. does that alone sound even remotely simple or straight forward to you?

PS..Indeed.

edit: On the subject of things working just fine soley: Exhibit A (and KillSwitch doesn't do anything that a reboot wouldn't fix).


CIS itself  is a group of previously separately developed and distributed modules. Combining the scanning capabilities of CIS, CCE and CSC behind a single menu with plain English guidance (ie when to use each tool) shouldn't be all that difficult or dangerous to the end user. After all, we are only talking about the convenience of a single point of entry.  What sort of complexities are you thinking about?   

Not to sure where you were leading when referring to KillSwiitch and that other persons comment, but most people would not worry about using KillSwitch  when with a little calm thought the existing Windows task manager would suffice  It is nice, but its effective use requires a different level of technical knowledge to optimise its use.

The use of the term well written was not an attack on Comodo - they are pretty much the best around - so there is no need to be defensive on their behalf.  However, as with most professionals, the principles of objective ongoing communication in the systems analysis and design review process is very important, just as the use of plain English in the instructions is more preferable as a first query response than an assumption of technical knowledge.  And I am NOT criticizing the Comodo guys; just making a general observation.

Offline clockwork

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2011, 11:02:57 AM »
Hey Eddie, I told you so....the standard response.  "Once swept there can be no need..." - but we know that life is not as logical as the champions think. Hubris creeps into the lives of many of us academics and we forget that life is more complex than a tightly controlled computer lab and that most computer users haven't got a clue how everything works and that most small businesses do not have the luxury of a full time geek to keep everyone fully trained and to maintain their system. That's why the average end-user (not necessarily the type of people that inhabit the denizens of the Comodo forums) just want one program they can rely on for pretty much any security problem that may develop in their world. Comodo have the ability to provide this holy grail program but unfortunately academic aloofness (there are other words for this) and their pride means that we are unlikely to get what we ask for - which is the opposite to most if not all marketing principles. So we will still be here and happy because we are special people and know which tools to use and when because even if we are not a the same level as some, we are better informed than the average Joe and appreciative of what we have...
I dont have a clue what "Eddie" should mean. And why you think my statement would be the standard response. I didnt respond to what was told about comodo. I responded to the attitude of an user who has no problem to invite 1000s of threats, but complains if he has to use a special desinfection program sometimes then.

I would listen to someone who tells me about security, when he also can say he wasnt infected. Or if, that he avoids it now.
People who are proud about a programs abillity to remove 1000s of threats may have a super program. But they have a problem at the basic.
I dont know if my antivirus could clean all of them. I dont care about cleaning, because its too late to feel safe. As i dont use comodos antivirus, its not the standard response for comodo.

And about the "Joe and Jane". Do you speak about those people who need help to set up security each time again? Who need to run things default because they have no idea? Who are helpless to search the internet for additional programs?
Sure, these persons would magically be able to solve the problems with a powerfull cleaning tool as soon as its integrated. Ehm, wait.....



Whoever asks me about security will not hear things about cleaning. Apart from the fact that cleaning doenst mean allways to be safe again after.
Security is everything that avoids infections. You are not additional more secure if you can clean everything.

All this doesnt speak pro or contra combining cce+cis.
I was happy with comodo when it has been a firewall and a defense+. I used a good antivirus, and was safer than before. I never felt to need a supercleaner, because i avoided infections.


And now, the car example :D
Everyone can drive, no need to learn or to avoid something. BUT THERE MUST BE A BRUSH IN THE CAR, FOR CLEANING AFTER USUAL HAPPENING OF CRASHES.

"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there was no phone...."

Offline Topcat2456

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2011, 03:44:08 PM »
I dont have a clue what "Eddie" should mean. And why you think my statement would be the standard response. I didnt respond to what was told about comodo. I responded to the attitude of an user who has no problem to invite 1000s of threats, but complains if he has to use a special desinfection program sometimes then.

I would listen to someone who tells me about security, when he also can say he wasnt infected. Or if, that he avoids it now.
People who are proud about a programs abillity to remove 1000s of threats may have a super program. But they have a problem at the basic.
I dont know if my antivirus could clean all of them. I dont care about cleaning, because its too late to feel safe. As i dont use comodos antivirus, its not the standard response for comodo.

And about the "Joe and Jane". Do you speak about those people who need help to set up security each time again? Who need to run things default because they have no idea? Who are helpless to search the internet for additional programs?
Sure, these persons would magically be able to solve the problems with a powerfull cleaning tool as soon as its integrated. Ehm, wait.....



Whoever asks me about security will not hear things about cleaning. Apart from the fact that cleaning doenst mean allways to be safe again after.
Security is everything that avoids infections. You are not additional more secure if you can clean everything.

All this doesnt speak pro or contra combining cce+cis.
I was happy with comodo when it has been a firewall and a defense+. I used a good antivirus, and was safer than before. I never felt to need a supercleaner, because i avoided infections.


And now, the car example :D
Everyone can drive, no need to learn or to avoid something. BUT THERE MUST BE A BRUSH IN THE CAR, FOR CLEANING AFTER USUAL HAPPENING OF CRASHES.



Perhaps my use of the English language may be a wee bit different to other people's but really, I said what I said. The aim of communication is to understand what the other person is saying and not to put our own spin on what was said and to use that misinterpretation as a basis for pointless comment.

My reference to Eddie was referring to to the immediate thread of this conversation, so to place things in context just read back one message from your first comment. This is not rocket science.

As for this conversation, it has become a pointless exchange whereby no mutually beneficial views are being shared and no attempt made to treat the topic objectively or to even keep on topic. This is not moderation, but making sport of someone's point of view.

Offline kail

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2011, 04:02:09 PM »
.. This is not moderation, but making sport of someone's point of view.
I'm the only Moderator that has posted in here for awhile, is this meant for me?
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Offline clockwork

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »
at Topcat2456
 
Could you speak more specific?
Is there anything wrong in what i say?
Or is it just something what you dont want to hear?

"On topic" doesnt mean "agree".

We can make it very on topic: What would you, me and the average user (Joe and Jane) gain if cce was integrated?
What else than having a brush to clean the mess better when it has been too late.... saying everyone would know what he does?

It is unlogical to speak about "inabillities" of inexperienced people who do all sorts of mistakes, to argument for an advanced cleaning tool to be integrated for them.

CCE would be also only of use, if these people would know that they are infected. "Everything runs fine, look! I have no virus."
I could tell you a lot of funny things, where having no CCE integrated was the absolut smallest problem ;)

I dont care if cce is integrated or not.
When people try to desinfect something, and it doesnt work, they will look for something else. Its comodos choice to gamble if they find cce or another vendor.
And its comodos choice to avoid getting angry people who used "an integrated super cleaner", which left their machine unuseable.
"Comodo destroys my machine", i bet it will take a day or two after integration to read this.

Its not a pro or contra. Its often inbetween. So saying, just pro is right, is wrong.
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there was no phone...."

Offline Topcat2456

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2011, 07:07:01 AM »
I'm the only Moderator that has posted in here for awhile, is this meant for me?

Kail

My apologies for being confused with who is talking to who (whom?) as I seem to have reacted to the comments made by someone else who was quoting you rather thanignoring them.

 I meant my comments to question the obfuscation and pot stirring motives of a 'hero' - and not you or any other moderator. I guess I should be more mindful of the identity of the person commenting before reacting to the attitudes of the more egocentric amongst us.

Offline kail

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2011, 12:53:22 PM »
.. My apologies for being confused with who is talking to who (whom?) ..
That's OK, no problem Topcat.
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Offline wasgij6

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2011, 02:37:41 AM »
maybe instead of integrating cce into cis. during the cis install there can be a dialog, asking the user if they want to download cce but it should have a disclaimer. cce is for advanced users and can cause damage if used improperly.
if the user does decide to download cce maybe comodo can integrate cce into the cis interface. idk if thats possible but it would be a cool feature.

im just brainstorming. seeing as many people want cce integrated into cis, there has to be some way to meet half way

there is just one problem i have without comodos logic behind cis. melih has always said that cis is used to prevent infections and cce is used to clean infections following that logic cis shouldnt have any cleaning features. i understand why the on access scanner is in cis but dont get why cis has an on demand scanner. if cis doesnt have the cleaning abilities that cce has and isnt meant to clean, why have the option at all? there are many options in cis that are used for cleaning infected systems

this is just my opinion
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Offline clockwork

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2011, 03:36:14 AM »
if cis doesnt have the cleaning abilities that cce has and isnt meant to clean, why have the option at all? there are many options in cis that are used for cleaning infected systems
Because cce is a special cleaning tool. No one says that comodo antivirus cant clean at all.

Kail

My apologies for being confused with who is talking to who (whom?) as I seem to have reacted to the comments made by someone else who was quoting you rather thanignoring them.

 I meant my comments to question the obfuscation and pot stirring motives of a 'hero' - and not you or any other moderator. I guess I should be more mindful of the identity of the person commenting before reacting to the attitudes of the more egocentric amongst us.
I guess, you should instead better react to what the other one says, instead of to what you think about his motives or whatever.
The aim of communication is to understand what the other person is saying and not to put our own spin on what was said and to use that misinterpretation as a basis for pointless comment.
Yes, but this should be the aim of both sides ;)



Just one question again: Do the people who use the default mode, who "are not able" (in your eyes) to look for a cleaner in the internet IN CASE OF inabbillity of ANY antivirus to clean a specific threat,
do these people magically clean away all their problems with cce?

As i said, i dont care about the integration. And its very funny that you call it egocentric then, when you hear arguments about that there are pro AND contra points. Looking at two opposite points of view is definitely very egocentric.....

I hope you are here when the people come to find help after using cce....
"It was part of the antivirus, so i used it. Now my machine doesnt work!"

« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:42:00 AM by clockwork »
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there was no phone...."

Offline Topcat2456

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2011, 04:11:40 AM »
maybe instead of integrating cce into cis. during the cis install there can be a dialog, asking the user if they want to download cce but it should have a disclaimer. cce is for advanced users and can cause damage if used improperly.
if the user does decide to download cce maybe comodo can integrate cce into the cis interface. idk if thats possible but it would be a cool feature.

im just brainstorming. seeing as many people want cce integrated into cis, there has to be some way to meet half way

there is just one problem i have without comodos logic behind cis. melih has always said that cis is used to prevent infections and cce is used to clean infections following that logic cis shouldnt have any cleaning features. i understand why the on access scanner is in cis but dont get why cis has an on demand scanner. if cis doesnt have the cleaning abilities that cce has and isnt meant to clean, why have the option at all? there are many options in cis that are used for cleaning infected systems

this is just my opinion

And a fair opinion too. In a perfect computing environment Melih is correct and I agree with him most of the time; however most users don't have the luxury of a controlled environment and I reckon there are other variables.

Consider variables such as multiple users in a SOHO environment where some users are less computer savvy than others, without tightly controlled technical support, and remembering that sometimes gets through before a defence has been designed. It seems reasonable to have everything in a system management suite just like Microsoft Office is a suite of productivity tools.

Perhaps the problems come when individual components have bugs even after release, but that is par for the course with software - even occasionally with Comodo despite the fact that they are so good. Which takes the discussion back to the fact that they can only protect against actual and perceived threats - not against stuff that slips through the proverbial net or is using a new and unforeseen concept - which is why I plump for a suite. All my tools in one place for ease of use and selection but hopefully never required.

Offline Melih

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2011, 07:58:30 AM »
And a fair opinion too. In a perfect computing environment Melih is correct and I agree with him most of the time; however most users don't have the luxury of a controlled environment and I reckon there are other variables.

Consider variables such as multiple users in a SOHO environment where some users are less computer savvy than others, without tightly controlled technical support, and remembering that sometimes gets through before a defence has been designed. It seems reasonable to have everything in a system management suite just like Microsoft Office is a suite of productivity tools.

Perhaps the problems come when individual components have bugs even after release, but that is par for the course with software - even occasionally with Comodo despite the fact that they are so good. Which takes the discussion back to the fact that they can only protect against actual and perceived threats - not against stuff that slips through the proverbial net or is using a new and unforeseen concept - which is why I plump for a suite. All my tools in one place for ease of use and selection but hopefully never required.

So for some "special" circumstance you need to enable AV all the time is what you are saying.
This is an exception more than a rule. In these circumstances, it might be a better solution to lockdown the computer with CIS.

A computer can exist in one state only, either infected or clean. As long as CIS is used on a clean computer, the switch between Clean and infected states do not happen that often ;)




Offline clockwork

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2011, 05:21:44 PM »
at Topcat2456

Do you remember comodo without any antivirus at all? I never missed even an antivirus in it.

When you say, all what is there now has to be in the suite, why not claiming we would need all the shiny things that an antivirus can have? How can we live without an email filter, a web filter, a "whatever names it has" feature?

What is much more important than including more and more: An antivirus that uses a small amount of resources, that doesnt update (and occupies the computer with it) every 30 minutes (without using a work around), that has a seperate setting for the guard AND context menu scan, and some other things.

For you it is maybe normal to get infected, so you need cce, because you trust in cleaning.
I avoid infection. I think i even had forgotten the name cce if i had not read it here again :D

Imagine, cce would not exist. Would you come here to ask for it to be developed? Would you miss it at all?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:23:51 PM by clockwork »
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there was no phone...."

Offline clockwork

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Re: Protection vs Cleaning….two very different things!
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2011, 05:40:02 PM »
It seems reasonable to have everything in a system management suite just like Microsoft Office is a suite of productivity tools.
Hm, i dont see why its reasonable then to need a security product from someone else. It should all be included in the windows operating system....
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there was no phone...."

 

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