Author Topic: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...  (Read 63784 times)

Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 09:37:01 PM »
From the methodology document I linked to elsewhere:



Not exactly brimming with detailed information, but I guess they do say they charge a fee...



So why do they make the AntiVirus vendors sign an agreement muzzling them from revealing this? Also not sure if this refers to all the tests they do, cos this mention "publishing", but we know they do many tests that they do not publish.....not sure this "fee" relates to "SOW" agreement they sign with vendors or just for use of logos etc.

Look at the first example they give for what the fee is about: Use of Logos :) Is this about being honest and transparent?

If users can't have transparent information, how can they trust AV-Comparatives when they say they are "independent" and there is a "financial interest". And without this financial interest, the company couldn't exist!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:48:10 PM by Melih »

Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 11:39:46 PM »
BTW: Does anyone know if anyone has Audited/Validated the claims made by AV-Comparatives about their "independence" ?

AV-Comparatives were a member of AMTSO, but they are not now. Why is that?


Here is what AMTSO is setup to do:

*****************************************
Welcome to the Membership Application Page for AMTSO.
AMTSO was founded in 2008 as a not-for profit organization that is committed to improving the objectivity, quality and relevance of testing methodologies through the development and publication of universally adopted standards and guidelines for anti-malware testing.

AMTSO membership is open to any corporation, institution or unaffiliated individual interested in participating in this organization. Please note that to apply as an individual, you must not be employed by any member organization, either under full-time, part-time or contractor status.

Why become a member of AMTSO?

AMTSO is in the process of developing testing standards and guidelines for global use to help improve the reliability and quality of the testing of security software and related products. It is our belief that the high quality of participants in this organization, and the strength of these standards and guidelines will make AMTSO the universally preeminent testing standards organization.

Who is developing these standards and guidelines? AMTSO members are technologists, testers, reviewers, and representatives of government and academia. These members contribute their expertise to influence the standards and guidelines being set by AMTSO. We believe that AMTSO will contribute toward enhancing the reliability of product reviews, improving product quality, and increasing overall customer security and satisfaction.
****************************************
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:46:59 PM by Melih »

Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 12:09:55 AM »
further clarification about "disclosure" (which is sorely lacking on AV-Comparatives case) is necessary as few (i do mean only a few) people think its ok to claim to be "indepedent" , not reveal financial interests and provide no Validation/auditing of the processes!!!!

http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/ftcendorse.htm  (This is from Federal Trade Commission)

§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.

When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller of the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or credibility of the endorsement (i.e., the connection is not reasonably expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed.



Offline Ronny

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 06:35:36 AM »
AV-Comparatives were a member of AMTSO, but they are not now. Why is that?
They left AMTSO  ???
That doesn't make sense, why would they leave? Has there been made any press release on why they left?
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Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 07:11:33 AM »
They left AMTSO  ???
That doesn't make sense, why would they leave? Has there been made any press release on why they left?

Transparency is an issue for AV-C ;), They don't even allow Antivirus vendors to reveal they pay AV-Comparatives! :)

 

They get paid to call themselves "independent" and they don't allow anyone to "audit/validate" this claim!


And when there is an organisation who is "not-for profit organization that is committed to improving the objectivity, quality and relevance of testing methodologies through the development and publication of universally adopted standards and guidelines for anti-malware testing." they drop their membership!


Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 07:35:20 AM »
They left AMTSO  ???
That doesn't make sense, why would they leave? Has there been made any press release on why they left?

One would speculate saying one of the main reasons is: "AV-Comparatives does not want external auditors to audit them".

But of course AV-Comparatives should reveal why they left AMTSO.

Offline Victor Popescu

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 08:06:48 AM »
I'm starting to suspect something here... could it be that X, invents a product that is better than most products and then, to be able to reach people and to be able to better spread the word about it, he goes to these testing co. who dismantle his product and find out everything about it's "innerworkings and the works", and then, these testing co. blackmail X with releasing the secret "innerworkings and the works" of his product to the public ?!?!

IF (before flaming, remember this is just a suspicion) so... then there is no wonder I've struggled so long in my searching to find a truly good product that can protect my pc, paying money to use all the "top dogs" products only to get infected after, then reformating and then doing it all over again... I'm wondering if I'm starting to see where my money truly went... and why in fact I wasn't able to buy protection for those money and in fact got malware instead... It seems that the SYSTEM IS CORRUPTED and that's why MALWARE PREVAILS.
I'm starting to understand your reluctancy in putting your product in the hands of these testing co. Melih... it seems that you are doing the proverbial "pact with the devil" when doing it... Let the people spread the word about your product, and not these testing co. All they want is profit, they do not want to help protecting the good people of this world.

Funny thing, just when I wrote this, a mortuary march passed by my house... someone died.

Oh, GO 99%, the world is behind you, u guys are in our thoughts !
"It's all a game, avoiding failure, when true colors will bleed
All in the name of misbehavior and the things we don't need
I lust for after no disaster can touch, touch us anymore
And more than ever, I hope to never fall, where ENOUGH is not the same it was before"... by Poets Of The Fall.

Offline Ronny

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 08:24:09 AM »
But of course AV-Comparatives should reveal why they left AMTSO.
It seems in 2009 they find it unneeded and might be to expensive for them 88)
http://www.av-comparatives.org/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=3335&highlight=amtso#post3335

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being or not being a member of AMTSO does not mean much; you should not see it as some sort of "qualification". Someone can be a non-member but follow anyway the proposed AMTSO guidelines (which is good). Esp. freetime/hobbyist testers may not afford the annual amtso membership fee (~2000 Euro).
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Offline dariovolaric

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 09:12:06 AM »
From AV-C:

"Melih continuously stated in his forum that we get paid by vendors, and insinuated that the payments have an influence on the results. "

Yes, they DO get paid by AV vendors and yes they MIGHT be influenced by money to put some AV products higher in rank than others. However this cannot be proven and should remain a speculation.

The FACT here is that AVC has a BIG influence on a products marketing and sales if AVC ranks it's products DETECTION on high. The flaw here is that DETECTION means NOTHING compared to PROTECTION. They have an outdated view of AV testing by believing that DETECTION is THE SAME AS PROTECTION. If you detect malware, then you can stop it, right? Wrong! There are many AV's that detect malware AFTER the damage has been done. You might have a product that detects 99% of malware, but what good is it if they are not stopped? And what about the 1%? That is still 1.000.000 pieces of malware let through out of 100.000.000.

As was stated in the Fee agreement, vendors can use the AVC logo for marketing purposes, meaning that AV vendors can put an AVC logo on their products, showing that it was tested by AVC and thus you can 'trust' it, boosting the products 'trust' and feeling of 'safetey', while in reality the product may provide less protection that those that scored very very low on avc (i.e: Comodo?).

For me AVC is like the FDA, creating false trust. They claim they use an AUTOMATED testing procedure and release results every 3 months or so? How many products do they test, about 20? How much does it cost to hire 1 person to test 20 AV products in 3 months time manually (like a real user would, i.e. Languy99 on YouTube) ? AV products will be used by people and NOT by robots! Or are they using this 'automated testing' thing as a protection when people claim that the tests are not accurate to reply that the tests were performed by an automated system and thus is more accurate than a human tester?

Bottom line,my opinion is that AVC is just a "marketing through trust" merchant where you can buy "trust" by having your product tested and results put in a 'roulette' of other vendor's results, hoping your product would come out as highest ranking and use this in your marketing. For a couple of thousand dollars, you can also enter your AV into this roulette...who knows, you might 'win' this time? :D

 Here you can find AVC's point of view and more clarification on what this 'misleading information' is:

http://www.av-comparatives.org/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=3798&highlight=comodo#post3798
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Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 09:31:18 AM »
It seems in 2009 they find it unneeded and might be to expensive for them 88)
http://www.av-comparatives.org/forum/index.php?page=Thread&postID=3335&highlight=amtso#post3335


LOL..once again Transparency and Honesty is an issue....

I think AV-Comparatives should reveal the real reasons why they left AMTSO.

Offline clockwork

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 11:50:36 AM »
Would you be so upset, too, about all this testing, if the tests would have shown comodo on top?

Why did you make the agreement with that company in the first place, if there are these points (amtso?, procedure) which suddenly are your only opinion about all what they do?




This is a very inacceptable accusing.
I'm starting to suspect something here... could it be that X, invents a product that is better than most products and then, to be able to reach people and to be able to better spread the word about it, he goes to these testing co. who dismantle his product and find out everything about it's "innerworkings and the works", and then, these testing co. blackmail X with releasing the secret "innerworkings and the works" of his product to the public ?!?!
We are not in a spy agent conspiracy movie here.
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there wasnt a phone...."

Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 12:16:25 PM »
Would you be so upset, too, about all this testing, if the tests would have shown comodo on top?

Why did you make the agreement with that company in the first place, if there are these points (amtso?, procedure) which suddenly are your only opinion about all what they do?




This is a very inacceptable accusing.We are not in a spy agent conspiracy movie here.

My views, from day one, was clear about the irrelevancy of these test...btw..we did score high
here is what Andreas from AV-Comparatives said:

" Furthermore, your ~90% is higher than what some few other products scored and similar to what other well-known products reached. You will see " (in my blog).

One cannot claim to be independent without a 3rd party validation while getting paid for those tests!

Offline clockwork

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 12:32:31 PM »
Temporary post:
Could you correct the quote?
As the former quotes are not visible in quotes, the "inacceptable accusing"-quote is out of context in your post ;)
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there wasnt a phone...."

Offline IGLSecurity.Brad

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 04:13:59 PM »
So I am working on a new  piece for my blog and need everyone's thoughts. If you believe this test is not independent then how should a true independent antivirus testing group work and be funded? http://igl-security.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-is-independent-antivirus-tester.html
Computer Security Blogger [at] http://igl-security.blogspot.com/

Offline Melih

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Re: AV-Comparatives.org, bullying, censorship and financial deals-continued...
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 04:19:14 PM »
So I am working on a new  piece for my blog and need everyone's thoughts. If you believe this test is not independent then how should a true independent antivirus testing group work and be funded? http://igl-security.blogspot.com/2011/11/what-is-independent-antivirus-tester.html

Its not about believing if this test is independent or not. We "want" to believe it, but how can we believe it without a 3rd party validation? The whole world works with 3rd party auditing and validation, why should AV-Comparatives be different?

The issue is not about payment...its about honesty......if we could have "transparency" and "auditing/Validation" of these methods/tests, then there simply is no problem with accepting payment for them.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:25:05 PM by Melih »

 

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