Author Topic: 2 internets.......  (Read 35112 times)

Offline EricJH

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2014, 08:49:31 PM »
Interesting point of view. I am a fan of that believe, the more technology the less privacy.
That requires an underlying ideology that believes that order can be maintained by extensive surveillance. It is a fear driven ideology. Not my cup of tea.

Offline Dch48

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2014, 04:59:30 PM »
That' s a fatalistic point of view. No matter what technology allows us it is not what we should be doing.

May be we should volunteer our DNA and fingerprints to Google?  :o  88)
That's just a ridiculous question. It's not fatalistic but rather realistic.
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Offline james321888

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2014, 11:30:40 PM »

Balancing security and privacy is challenging. The NSA goes to one extreme and collects everything it possibly can. :(

From Snowden's disclosed materials, it does seem that the projects initially set to collect information for security reasons somehow got loose and led to collecting info for political or even commercial reasons. Lately, Obama's started to do work on his part trying to fine-tune and put more restraints on NSA, let's see how this unfolds.

No, it's an unfortunate consequence of the world we live in.

This statement does imply fatalism, doesn't it ? It is fatalistic and realistic.  ;)
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Offline james321888

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2014, 11:31:01 AM »

I don't really trust Obama in this.

Sure it could just be more of a Show shown to the public and US allies, especially the German Chancellor ;), that NSA's abusive behavior has been put under control.

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How well has he run things?
Well, I think Obama's administration has done pretty good on the economic front, given the fact that US has a divided Congress.

(Sorry guys, it's a bit off topic here)
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Offline Chiron

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2014, 01:23:54 PM »
Just a polite reminder, refrain from making comments which could be construed as political. :P0l

Offline ad18

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2014, 02:09:20 PM »
Thanks for the reminder Chiron. Will delete the post.

Offline Chiron

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 02:18:53 PM »
Thanks for the reminder Chiron. Will delete the post.
Deleting the post is not necessary. Just make sure that this post does not continue  !ot!.

Offline clockwork

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014, 08:44:54 AM »
No, it's an unfortunate consequence of the world we live in.
You assume the ones who listen to any of your conversation are the good ones.
And you assume, the ones who will do that in the future, and who read the old files will allways be the good ones.
And you assume that talking about today`s right things cant be wrong tomorrow.

Imagine it was early 1933 now.....  in germany.

Some countries know why there are laws to protect the people from the state. Learn from them.
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there wasnt a phone...."

Offline Dch48

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
You assume the ones who listen to any of your conversation are the good ones.
And you assume, the ones who will do that in the future, and who read the old files will allways be the good ones.
And you assume that talking about today`s right things cant be wrong tomorrow.

Imagine it was early 1933 now.....  in germany.

Some countries know why there are laws to protect the people from the state. Learn from them.
We have laws that protect us from the state and they work quite well. The surveillance protects all of us from enemies and repeats of 9/11. They are not interested in your day to day activities unless they seem suspicious. I acknowledge that this is unfortunate but once again, I say it is necessary in today's world. As for Snowden, he is a traitor plain and simple. Anybody who takes actions that can undermine the security of his own country fits the classic definition of the term.
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Offline clockwork

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2014, 12:04:47 PM »
We have laws that protect us from the state and they work quite well. The surveillance protects all of us from enemies and repeats of 9/11. They are not interested in your day to day activities unless they seem suspicious. I acknowledge that this is unfortunate but once again, I say it is necessary in today's world. As for Snowden, he is a traitor plain and simple. Anybody who takes actions that can undermine the security of his own country fits the classic definition of the term.
The argumentation is similar to what happened for example in 1933. No one said, we will make war and bad things. Just paint some words around it, like danger, protection, wealth, work, safety for the nation, so the people ask for the protection ...... And they swallowed the reglementations. Until it was too late. You know with what words the war started? "Since 5:45 we are shooting BACK!" Every dictation "is" in the right.
And like one of the mad leaders said back then:
"You wonder how we make it that people march into a war to die? Its quite simple. Tell the others that those who dont want to go are traitors. Because they undermine the security of the nation!"

You did not understand what i tried to tell you about your assumptions. In the netherlands they made notes about who is jewish. Without a bad thought. But when the nazis came later, the lists were used to get the jews easily.

If lawd had wanted the people to be surveilanced, he had made the functions from day one, eh, day 6.....
But wait, rome had gotten all christians catched! "Because they are a danger."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 07:25:40 PM by clockwork »
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there wasnt a phone...."

Offline ad18

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2014, 12:49:13 PM »
If you are worried about surveillance then you have two options. Never use the internet or just live with it. A VPN could help if there are not logs but there is no way for a user to verify the no logs policy. 

Offline clockwork

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2014, 01:21:35 PM »
If you are worried about surveillance then you have two options. Never use the internet or just live with it. A VPN could help if there are not logs but there is no way for a user to verify the no logs policy.
Its not about that you dont like it if you are worried.
Make a test. Ask someone if he is ok with surveillance. And if he says, i dont have something to hide, ask him: Can i take a look in your phone?
You will be surprised to get the answer "No!"

I imagine a person who i would not let close to my daughter, who could spy on her phone, just because he can......
"If there is a problem, it`s something interesting. Try to circumvent or fix it.
In the old ages there has been no support. That`s why we got the brain we have today.
Otherwise we would only be able to call a number and listen.
But there wasnt a phone...."

Offline EricJH

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2014, 05:22:06 PM »
The argumentation is similar to what happened for example in 1933. No one said, we will make war and bad things. ]Just paint some words around it, like danger, protection, wealth, work, safety for the nation...... And you had swallowed the reglementations. Until it was too late. You know with what words the war started? "Since 5:45 we are shooting BACK!" Every dictation "is" in the right.
And like one of the mad leaders said back then:
"You wonder how we make it that people march into a war to die? Its quite simple. Tell the others that those who dont want to go are traitors. Because they undermine the security of the nation!"
Make sure to add the if_you're_not_with_us_you're_against_us element while calling somebody not a patriot. Cheney and Rumsfeld had US society transfixed with it regardless whether politicians or citizens were agreeing or not.

NSA has no proper evidence their program actually worked. Analogous but at a very different level: CCTV all across the UK did not help to get less crime.

US and UK are so much alike in the pursuit of the surveillance state wet dream. I am from the continent and cannot stop being amazed by it from time to time.

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You did not understand what i tried to tell you about your assumptions. In the netherlands they made notes about who is jewish. Without a bad thought. But when the nazis came later, the lists were used to get the jews easily.
A dark stain on Dutch history for sure.

Quote
If lawd had wanted the people to be surveilanced, he had made the functions from day one, eh, day 6.....
But wait, rome had gotten all christians catched! "Because they are a danger."
If you are worried about surveillance then you have two options. Never use the internet or just live with it. A VPN could help if there are not logs but there is no way for a user to verify the no logs policy. 
Another thing to do is to take political action in any way type of form.

Its not about that you dont like it if you are worried.
Make a test. Ask someone if he is ok with surveillance. And if he says, i dont have something to hide, ask him: Can i take a look in your phone?
You will be surprised to get the answer "No!"
Nice way of confronting those who firmly stated they've got nothing to hide.

Quote
I imagine a person who i would not let close to my daughter, who could spy on her phone, just because he can......
Then proponents would argue that officials would never do such a thing. The surveillance is in hands of capable people who obey and work within the law.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:11:34 PM by EricJH »

Offline Boris 3

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2014, 02:39:03 AM »
We are in an era of surveillance not ever dreamed by Orson Wells. New cars in EU and US are required to have by 2015 a trackable GPS “safety” device. In Belgium they are going a step further and will be testing in a few days a new use of this device : make users pay a fee by km which will be different for highway, national route or city street. Of course to implement this system the fiscal administration will need to track every movement of the citizens cars. But it is said that Belgium is a free and democratic country!

Offline EricJH

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Re: 2 internets.......
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2014, 12:41:42 PM »
Dutch Police working on nationwide network of cameras and sensors.

The wet surveillance dream continues.

 

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