Re: We now have a more "sought after" brand than Verisign! :-)

[Guest]

[LUSHER]

Sir,

Allow me to respectfully disagree.

And allow me to disagree with your disagreement, particularly since you are attributing to me statements or opinions I have not made.

1.  Free as in "free speach" not "free beer":

One company I worked for, (this was told me by one of the company's IT staff), had their top executive out on a business trip.  During the flight he read in a business magazine about how Linux was beginning to take hold and could save the company money.

Irrelevant story, because the brand awareness here is I would guess not at the corporate level. People gushing over commodo are personal users , my perception is that this hasn't carried over yet.
Besides think about it, your story doesn't make sense when it comes to comodo....

Additionally, how many times have you been offered a sample of something, perhaps a commercial product, a food item, or whatever by a company or manufacturer trying to promote its brand?

This is one of the oldest marketing ideas in the book - and is the foundational paradigm for the entire Shareware industry.

Yes, and they generally offer a sample of something that they are trying to sell.... In shareware, they give users a taste of their limited software. Taking an example of AVG that is probably familar to everyone here, they give AVG free for personal use only....   Why? They are hoping users will be so used to AVG they will get companies to buy it for corporate use too... This is a strategy has you point out the oldest marketing idea....

But what Comodo is doing is something completely different and far more risky! They are hoping that by giving away something, it magically translates to trust in another  completely different area. That is by far more challenging and less certain..., trying to create a general unfocused "goodwill" kind of image,  Particularly since no effort is made to push that link. All users get is a free security software, no strings attached without being aware of Comodo's core business.

Certainly there is no tie in at all with what they are trying to achieve, I would bet most people have no idea at all of what Comodo really does.

I believe that at the start Comodo wanted to create adware, so free products would release ads to build brand awareness (e.g ads about their core business), but because of a stink that the guys at alt.comp.freeware made, this was dropped.

As such the link between what they are trying to achieve and what they do was completely severed.

3.  "Free" is not necessarily inferior:

Hmm did I ever say that? I propose that you are stereotyping me as the "opposition" , hence you are not addressing what i really said.....

[LUSHER]

Gentlemen (AND, of course, the Ladies too!)

Panic:
Thank you very much for your kind words.  I also agree that Lusher made some valid points, but I felt it was important to place - on the record as it were - the viewpoint of the "opposition" (as they say in Britain).

Actually over here, I'm the one who is the opposition, because I don't worship the ground on which Comodo  walks. It gets frustrating because people seldom address what i say, preferring to address what they thought I said based on their conception of me as a comodo opposer.

[Someone]

Irrelevant story, because the brand awareness here is I would guess not at the corporate level. People gushing over commodo are personal users , my perception is that this hasn't carried over yet.
Besides think about it, your story doesn't make sense when it comes to comodo....

If you try to find an exact match, you can't infer on anything. All kinds of strategies exist for brand awareness.

But what Comodo is doing is something completely different and far more risky! They are hoping that by giving away something, it magically translates to trust in another  completely different area. That is by far more challenging and less certain..., trying to create a general unfocused "goodwill" kind of image,  Particularly since no effort is made to push that link. All users get is a free security software, no strings attached without being aware of Comodo's core business.

Certainly there is no tie in at all with what they are trying to achieve, I would bet most people have no idea at all of what Comodo really does.

It's a strategy. I'm sure they made some kind of study. You think they were born yesterday?
Comodo's products are available for businesses too. Not only that, when you download CPF etc. you run in to their business, unless you're pretty lost..
The indirect effect from "consumers" should exist, the scale of it is what we don't know. How many people will get it to make it profitable? How much profitable? That's the only question for a business.
Since i don't work for Comodo, i don't know how it's going, or what they're basing on. Numbers, numbers!
What i can say is it makes sense, on principle, to me.

Actually over here, I'm the one who is the opposition, because I don't worship the ground on which Comodo  walks. It gets frustrating because people seldom address what i say, preferring to address what they thought I said based on their conception of me as a comodo opposer.

I'm happy to benefit from CPF mainly. I don't worship them, but i feel i must reply on these cases for they are the ones not based on anything.

I studied enough Economics to know such fantastic phrases really don't say anything. You dismiss a whole company's strategy (saying it won't work), with people working on their respective areas, basing on nothing, i'm sorry. My opinion.

[Melih]

........

I believe that at the start Comodo wanted to create adware, so free products would release ads to build brand awareness (e.g ads about their core business), but because of a stink that the guys at alt.comp.freeware made, this was dropped.

Lusher

The above assumption you made about Comodo wanting adware is totally wrong! We at no stage did that nor intended to.

thanks
Melih

[jharris1993]

And allow me to disagree with your disagreement, particularly since you are attributing to me statements or opinions I have not made.

Lusher,

First of all, please do feel free to disagree.  I am all for a healthy dialog on any topic, and as a software quality engineer - I'm used to being "the opposition"    (everyone wants to ship, and I'm trying to tell them "... but 'e's got no clothes!" - and they don't want to hear that, so invariably SQA in general, and myself in particular, gets branded as "not being a team player!" because I don't want them to ship s**t...)   

And, understand that there is no disrespect intended - and hopefully none taken.  If, in my ignorance, I have misunderstood what you've said, and quoted it wrongly, than accept my humblest apologies ahead of time.

However, if I don't reply and express my understanding - how will you ever know I understood wrongly, and how will you ever be able to reform my (and possibly others) misunderstanding as well, right?

Irrelevant story, because the brand awareness here is I would guess not at the corporate level. People gushing over commodo are personal users , my perception is that this hasn't carried over yet.
Besides think about it, your story doesn't make sense when it comes to comodo....

Irrelevant?  Not realy....  Again, my understanding was that you believed that - simply because it was given away freely, it was (in the customer's eye) something of little value.  And that this association might well color the public's awareness of Commodo.

However - this point you make is very valid, with respect to a direct-marketing approach.  People like Lavasoft (AdAware), Broadgun's "PDF Machine" as well as Smart Project's "IsoBuster" do this very well - they provide a reasonably featured product with some important advanced features disabled - so that you can use the product, but if you want the "added extra features" you pony up for the full paid version.

It's my understanding that Commodo isn't in the "direct marketing" venue - at least with respect to these products.  What they're trying to do is more subtle - and perhaps more far-reaching.

AFAIK, they want to sell secure server based services, like certs, enterprise security, etc. for the "e-tail" (online retail) business segment.

As anyone will tell you, one of the limiting factors to growth in any business segment is the confidence that people have in the use of your business.

Example from the "real world"
Assume you open a resturaunt, you have phenominal food, five-star chefs, excellent service, great atmosphere, reasonable prices - in short, everything anyone could ask, except.... your business is located in an absolutely horrid part of town...  People who come to your business do so at their peril, and it's known that the area where your business is located is dangerous....  How can you expect your business to succeed?  Even if you have food "to die for", people won't REALLY risk their lives just to eat it... right?

In order to succeed, your potential customers must feel safe coming to your business.

As I see it, this is Commodo's underlying strategy:  (again, AFAIK)

Many people still view the Internet as a potentially "dangerous" place to either be, or to transact business.  People hear all the hype about viruses, identity theft, security breaches, etc. - so they naturally think twice - or even three times, before making an on-line purchase.  Assuming they do so at all...

Since Commodo's main business is serving the online retailer - and since the success of online retail is dependant in great measure on the confidence the purchasing public has in the marketplace, anything done to increase that confidence is - by definition - good for business.

Does this directly translate - one-for-one - to business for Commodo?  Probably not.  But, I am sure that there is enough, and more than enough, business to go around.  Even if Verisign benefits too.

Also, consumer power, and consumer referrals, is a non-trivial market force.

Another example:  I visited a web site recently, and they self-certify.  The explanation for their desire to "self certify" is because getting a "trusted 3rd party cert" is "too expensive".  Of course, I replied to their site, and suggested they check out Commodo.  Maybe they can help, maybe not, I don't know.  But I do know that Commodo's prices on certs is (in all probability) lower than Verisign or the other "cert" companies.  So, I suggested Commodo.

Maybe they don't buy.  OK, stinks being them.  However if people learn that Commod isn't just out for blood, and they occasionally mention it, Commodo will eventually benefit.

But what Comodo is doing is something completely different and far more risky! They are hoping that by giving away something, it magically translates to trust in another  completely different area. That is by far more challenging and less certain..., trying to create a general unfocused "goodwill" kind of image,  Particularly since no effort is made to push that link. All users get is a free security software, no strings attached without being aware of Comodo's core business.

Certainly there is no tie in at all with what they are trying to achieve, I would bet most people have no idea at all of what Comodo really does.

An absolutely valid point.  And, IMHO, this is something that Melih and his marketing team may want to look at.  Especially using the "indirect" marketing paradigm they propose, the importance of cross branding, and making sure that the public has a good idea of what they do is crucial...

And here is where I believe Commodo is making their biggest mistake...  They leave much of this unsaid.

In fact, if I had not had the guts, balls, hutzpah, or whatever to write to their sales[at] link, I'd have never heard Commodo's side of the story, or never even knew these forums existed!

If I were them (and Melih, if I may offer the humblest of suggestions), I would modify their freeware pages to include more information on - not only what they do, but WHY they do it - perhaps a "why is all this free?" link on each of the respective freeware pages.  Commodo is, IMHO, providing a valuable service, and it's not inappropriate to do a little judicious "professional dogmatism" here - brag on yourselves a bit!  (I know about the characteristic British reticence - but this is no place to be shy - toot your own horn because nobody else will!)

Melih - in further support of this, may I remind you that the "average" Internet user is a pretty jaded fellow, and they're so used to seeing "FREE!" this and that - usually with some string, like a root-kit, or adware, or some darn toolbar that is almost impossible to uninstall - that most users, seeing what you offer, would most likely just write it off as more "junkware".  I know, I dang near did.  I, however had the guts to actually "call your bluff" and see what you had to say.  Most people won't do this.  They'lll make the "obvious assumption" and just move on.

Hmm did I ever say that? I propose that you are stereotyping me as the "opposition" , hence you are not addressing what i really said.....

No... I'm not "stereotyping [you] as the 'opposition'..."

Lusher, one of the things I admire about you and your opinions, is your desire to speak your mind.  Not that you're trying to ruffle feathers, but you are passionate about what you believe, and you want to present these opinions in a fair way.

I'm the same way.  I like to speak my mind, in a brisk - no bull-s**t kind of way.  And, unfortunately, this is not always taken as the constructive criticism it's intended to be.

And I battle this in myself all the time - AND, it's an effort to try to make my point without it (appearing) to degenerate into personal attack.

If I could offer the humblest of suggestions, it would be "gently, gently".

Your opinions are both considered, important, and valuable.  You do not want to run the risk of being considered "irrelevant" simply because of the tone of your messages, 'eh?

I'm reminded of a passage my father told me years ago:

The definition of "diplomacy" is being able to tell a person to "go to hell" in such a way that they're actually looking forward to making the trip!

I try to keep this in the front of my mind - and I constantly try to soften the hard edges of my (sometimes harsh) critiques - based on that thought.

As always, I remain,

Respectfully,

Jim

[Melih]

Lusher,

First of all, please do feel free to disagree.  I am all for a healthy dialog on any topic, and as a software quality engineer - I'm used to being "the opposition"    (everyone wants to ship, and I'm trying to tell them "... but 'e's got no clothes!" - and they don't want to hear that, so invariably SQA in general, and myself in particular, gets branded as "not being a team player!" because I don't want them to ship s**t...)   

And, understand that there is no disrespect intended - and hopefully none taken.  If, in my ignorance, I have misunderstood what you've said, and quoted it wrongly, than accept my humblest apologies ahead of time.

However, if I don't reply and express my understanding - how will you ever know I understood wrongly, and how will you ever be able to reform my (and possibly others) misunderstanding as well, right?

Irrelevant?  Not realy....  Again, my understanding was that you believed that - simply because it was given away freely, it was (in the customer's eye) something of little value.  And that this association might well color the public's awareness of Commodo.

However - this point you make is very valid, with respect to a direct-marketing approach.  People like Lavasoft (AdAware), Broadgun's "PDF Machine" as well as Smart Project's "IsoBuster" do this very well - they provide a reasonably featured product with some important advanced features disabled - so that you can use the product, but if you want the "added extra features" you pony up for the full paid version.

It's my understanding that Commodo isn't in the "direct marketing" venue - at least with respect to these products.  What they're trying to do is more subtle - and perhaps more far-reaching.

AFAIK, they want to sell secure server based services, like certs, enterprise security, etc. for the "e-tail" (online retail) business segment.

As anyone will tell you, one of the limiting factors to growth in any business segment is the confidence that people have in the use of your business.

Example from the "real world"
Assume you open a resturaunt, you have phenominal food, five-star chefs, excellent service, great atmosphere, reasonable prices - in short, everything anyone could ask, except.... your business is located in an absolutely horrid part of town...  People who come to your business do so at their peril, and it's known that the area where your business is located is dangerous....  How can you expect your business to succeed?  Even if you have food "to die for", people won't REALLY risk their lives just to eat it... right?

In order to succeed, your potential customers must feel safe coming to your business.

As I see it, this is Commodo's underlying strategy:  (again, AFAIK)

Many people still view the Internet as a potentially "dangerous" place to either be, or to transact business.  People hear all the hype about viruses, identity theft, security breaches, etc. - so they naturally think twice - or even three times, before making an on-line purchase.  Assuming they do so at all...

Since Commodo's main business is serving the online retailer - and since the success of online retail is dependant in great measure on the confidence the purchasing public has in the marketplace, anything done to increase that confidence is - by definition - good for business.

Does this directly translate - one-for-one - to business for Commodo?  Probably not.  But, I am sure that there is enough, and more than enough, business to go around.  Even if Verisign benefits too.

Also, consumer power, and consumer referrals, is a non-trivial market force.

Another example:  I visited a web site recently, and they self-certify.  The explanation for their desire to "self certify" is because getting a "trusted 3rd party cert" is "too expensive".  Of course, I replied to their site, and suggested they check out Commodo.  Maybe they can help, maybe not, I don't know.  But I do know that Commodo's prices on certs is (in all probability) lower than Verisign or the other "cert" companies.  So, I suggested Commodo.

Maybe they don't buy.  OK, stinks being them.  However if people learn that Commod isn't just out for blood, and they occasionally mention it, Commodo will eventually benefit.


An absolutely valid point.  And, IMHO, this is something that Melih and his marketing team may want to look at.  Especially using the "indirect" marketing paradigm they propose, the importance of cross branding, and making sure that the public has a good idea of what they do is crucial...

And here is where I believe Commodo is making their biggest mistake...  They leave much of this unsaid.

In fact, if I had not had the guts, balls, hutzpah, or whatever to write to their sales [ at ]  link, I'd have never heard Commodo's side of the story, or never even knew these forums existed!

If I were them (and Melih, if I may offer the humblest of suggestions), I would modify their freeware pages to include more information on - not only what they do, but WHY they do it - perhaps a "why is all this free?" link on each of the respective freeware pages.  Commodo is, IMHO, providing a valuable service, and it's not inappropriate to do a little judicious "professional dogmatism" here - brag on yourselves a bit!  (I know about the characteristic British reticence - but this is no place to be shy - toot your own horn because nobody else will!)

Melih - in further support of this, may I remind you that the "average" Internet user is a pretty jaded fellow, and they're so used to seeing "FREE!" this and that - usually with some string, like a root-kit, or adware, or some darn toolbar that is almost impossible to uninstall - that most users, seeing what you offer, would most likely just write it off as more "junkware".  I know, I dang near did.  I, however had the guts to actually "call your bluff" and see what you had to say.  Most people won't do this.  They'lll make the "obvious assumption" and just move on.

No... I'm not "stereotyping [you] as the 'opposition'..."

Lusher, one of the things I admire about you and your opinions, is your desire to speak your mind.  Not that you're trying to ruffle feathers, but you are passionate about what you believe, and you want to present these opinions in a fair way.

I'm the same way.  I like to speak my mind, in a brisk - no bull-s**t kind of way.  And, unfortunately, this is not always taken as the constructive criticism it's intended to be.

And I battle this in myself all the time - AND, it's an effort to try to make my point without it (appearing) to degenerate into personal attack.

If I could offer the humblest of suggestions, it would be "gently, gently".

Your opinions are both considered, important, and valuable.  You do not want to run the risk of being considered "irrelevant" simply because of the tone of your messages, 'eh?

I'm reminded of a passage my father told me years ago:

The definition of "diplomacy" is being able to tell a person to "go to hell" in such a way that they're actually looking forward to making the trip!

I try to keep this in the front of my mind - and I constantly try to soften the hard edges of my (sometimes harsh) critiques - based on that thought.

As always, I remain,

Respectfully,

Jim

thank for the feedback Jim. All valid points and we will take them into account when considering a new website design.
thanks
Melih

[panic]

The definition of "diplomacy" is being able to tell a person to "go to hell" in such a way that they're actually looking forward to making the trip!

Same as "Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy".

Well said Jim.

Ewen :-)

[jharris1993]

Same as "Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy".

Well said Jim.

Ewen :-)

Now, all I have to do is figure out how to say it, without taking up two or three screens worth of type to do it... 

Jim

[LUSHER]

Lusher

The above assumption you made about Comodo wanting adware is totally wrong! We at no stage did that nor intended to.

thanks
Melih

I'm not going to quibble about the definition of "adware", anyone who is interested can consult the archives on alt.comp.freeware to see what was planned  and the uproar that it brought (the guys there are purists).

Unfortunately, you chickened out in the face of opposition and removed everything, as a result you now offer free stuff without any avenue for communicating your message.....

 

[Melih]

I'm not going to quibble about the definition of "adware", anyone who is interested can consult the archives on alt.comp.freeware to see what was planned  and the uproar that it brought (the guys there are purists).

Unfortunately, you chickened out in the face of opposition and removed everything, as a result you now offer free stuff without any avenue for communicating your message.....

 

Lusher

Once again. You are 100% wrong!!!

What you are referring to in those forums is the discussion about Launchpad! Have you even read the forums for god sake!!!??

Why are you coming here, with half information and making some ugly allegation about what we thought we were going to do without even reading the postings you base your flawed allegations on!!!??

Melih

[LUSHER]

Lusher

Once again. You are 100% wrong!!!

What you are referring to in those forums is the discussion about Launchpad! Have you even read the forums for god sake!!!??

Of course I don't read that newsgroup, heck I'm just one of the top 10 or 20 frequent poster in that group. 

Why are you coming here, with half information and making some ugly allegation about what we thought we were going to do without even reading the postings you base your flawed allegations on!!!??

LOL. I'm not making allegations, quite the reverse actually, I was saying people were!  Yes the objection was to launchpad, which some people felt was ad-ware (hence my comment about not wanting to debate if it was actually so) My point is you bowed to public pressure instead of sticking to your guns and as such you lost a very important communication avenue to drive your message!

[LUSHER]

If you try to find an exact match, you can't infer on anything. All kinds of strategies exist for brand awareness.It's a strategy. I'm sure they made some kind of study. You think they were born yesterday?

And you think marketing strategies are all well thought out? Never heard of mismanagement? And want to bet on "the kind of study" thing? I highly doubt comodo did one.

As I said before, with the exception of maybe jharris1993, everyone here is not keeping an open mind, and whatever I say, people are already to misinterpret.

In another thread, I made a simple point that whitelisting of excutables wasn't a 100% solution (nor particularly original idea) and a certain gentleman jumped all over me, saying I don't understand how it works, or that i was obviously, supporting blacklisting or whatever.

The funny thing is that very same gentleman was complaining about me, posting links to a certain url that pretty much supports and explains how whitelisting works (written by myself) and from his "discoveries" of certain software, it's obvious to me I have far more experience with whitelisting then him.

Maybe I should just get with the program and gush about all the good points about comodo and believe that they can do no wrong huh? But I don't see the point because everyone else is already doing so here.

[Melih]

Of course I don't read that newsgroup, heck I'm just one of the top 10 or 20 frequent poster in that group. 


LOL. I'm not making allegations, quite the reverse actually, I was saying people were!  Yes the objection was to launchpad, which some people felt was ad-ware (hence my comment about not wanting to debate if it was actually so) My point is you bowed to public pressure instead of sticking to your guns and as such you lost a very important communication avenue to drive your message!

BTW: you did make an allegation: here is the excerpt:

"I believe that at the start Comodo wanted to create adware"

So you agree that you were wrong then

cos Launchpad was never an adware 

Some uninformed users, without even using the product called it adware and we know they were wrong and you are building your case on this misinformed users, who never used the product and called it adware..

Lusher, i think you should be man enough to say, look ok I was wrong! It takes a decent man to accept he is wrong.

Melih

and oh BTW: have you seen the latest trends from Google.. we are increasing our lead from Verisign even further   Comodo is the more sought after brand than Verisign.

[Someone]

Maybe I should just get with the program and gush about all the good points about comodo and believe that they can do no wrong huh? But I don't see the point because everyone else is already doing so here.

Please don't, speak up what's in your mind. I do.

And you think marketing strategies are all well thought out? Never heard of mismanagement? And want to bet on "the kind of study" thing? I highly doubt comodo did one.

No i don't, yes i did, no i don't want to bet on something i have no basis for. That was my point. How do i know if it was poorly done? How can you tell? You are guessing.

As I said before, with the exception of maybe jharris1993, everyone here is not keeping an open mind, and whatever I say, people are already to misinterpret.

In another thread, I made a simple point that whitelisting of excutables wasn't a 100% solution (nor particularly original idea) and a certain gentleman jumped all over me, saying I don't understand how it works, or that i was obviously, supporting blacklisting or whatever.

The funny thing is that very same gentleman was complaining about me, posting links to a certain url that pretty much supports and explains how whitelisting works (written by myself) and from his "discoveries" of certain software, it's obvious to me I have far more experience with whitelisting then him.

I think i understood you on that topic. That was a good discussion.
I won't comment on the gentleman part, for i don't know what you refer to/ prefer to leave myself out of that.

[Melih]

Maybe I should just get with the program and gush about all the good points about comodo and believe that they can do no wrong huh? But I don't see the point because everyone else is already doing so here.

we have many users who tell us how they want to see our products improved, and we very much welcome that. However, you are not doing that, what you are doing is wrongfully alleging stuff that is not true and based on some uninformed user who posted in some other forum some time ago.

That is what we have problem with!

We do welcome you telling us how we can improve our products.

thanks
Melih

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